Talk:Faust, Part Two

Comment

hi. i haven't read the book or seen the play, yet was interested enough to read this article. i thought i'd help by improving the grammar a little. i found that i couldn't make too many changes for fear of losing the intended meaning.

anyway, hope it helps.

.michael

Comment Restructured and cleaned-up. Could still do with some cross-referencing particularly to other works on/about Faust. Marcus22 15:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Similarities between Faust and Goethe in the text are often obvious." This is nonsense, therefore I'll delete it. My judgement is based on "Faust-Dichtungen" by Ulrich Gaier as cited in the article for Part I. --Jean Winkler 16:45, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't think that metal band trivia has any relevance here. Especially in light of the very short content summary of the drama... --Jean Winkler 16:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Stub?

Why has this article gone from a regular article to a stub? --YankeeDoodle14 21:11, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Part I is based on the legend of Faust, a legend that goes back at least to Marlowe's play. But what about this Part II? Is it more freely created by Goethe in its plot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leonardo Teixeira de Oliveira (talk • contribs) 20:57, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only part of Faust I is directly related to the legend, which goes back at least to the beginning of 16th century (thus is older than Marlowe's play). The "Gretchen"-plot is, to my knowledge, a complete invention of Goethe. As for Faust II, the legend (at least in a version of the 18th century, which came to Goethe's attention) already contained Faust's marriage with Helen and an encounter with the German Kaiser. But certainly Goethe deals with the legendary material very freely in both parts. See also the article "Johann Faust" in the German Wikipedia. Emil Wiedemann (talk) 12:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

German Kaiser

The article says that Faust encounters the "German Kaiser", but that is utterly wrong. Such a title did not exist when Goethe published Faust II, instead it is the Holy Roman Emperor. A title like "German Emperor" (Deutscher Kaiser), often referred to as "German Kaiser", only exists since 1871 with Wilhelm I. as the first who used it. Could someone please correct it in the article, because it leads to confusion.91.2.106.19 (talk) 23:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources of Goethe's Faust

I object to this recent edit by @Antiquated:, which claims that the Gretchen tragedy were based on Clementine Recognitions. While one reference (that I cannot check) is provided, none the Faust commentaries and interpretations that I'm aware of mention this source, but all coincide in that the Gretchen subplot is Goethe's own contribution to the plotline. That his source and inspiration was was the infanticide trial (and subsequent execution) of de:Susanna Margaretha Brandt that took place in Frankfurt in 1772 (and whose trial documents he is thought to have studied) is stated consistently in all sources that I have seen. Specific citations for this claim include E Trunz: Nachwort. In: Goethes Werke Vol. 3, p447 (Die Gretchenhandlung ist eine Motivreihe, die erst Goethe mit dem Fauststoff verbunden hat.); Kindlers Literatur Lexikon, Vol 6 (Komet (1998); AN Wilson writes in his recent Goethe biography His faustian life: “The chief innovation that Goethe brought to the Faust story is [...] the catastrophic love affair with [...] Gretchen” (p62) and discusses the influence of the Frankfurt trial (pp143); L Jaeger: Goethes Faust CH Beck, 2021), (Goethes eigenständige und [...] wirkungsträchtigste Ergänzung der alten Fausterzahlung (p24); DLF, ard telekolleg. Goethe even accused the author of the play de:Die Kindermörderin of "plagiarism". A Schöne: Goethe Faust. Kommentare (DKV 1994), pp193 also references the Brandt trial (and cites especially Ernst Beutler, who thinks the first written passages of Faust were directly inspired by the trial), but he also indicates one detail in one of the old Faust books ("Faustbuch" of Pfitzer, 1674) that may have been the germ of the Gretchen plot: this book contains a side remark detailing the affair a student had with the daughter of his hostess which led to pregnancy, birth, infanticide, and execution of both the child's mother and her servant. Schöne also mentions Chorus Sanctorum Omnium, as a possible source (namely it's description of the imprisonment and execution of Margaret the Virgin.
If there is only Gilles Quispel who thinks that the Clementine Recognitions are a source for Gretchen, then I don't think this should be part of the WP article and certainly not at such a prominent place. --Qcomp (talk) 23:00, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]